Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 05 Jul 2017 22:13

Updated and baggish has been contacted.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 05 Jul 2017 22:56

James-Masaki_Ryan wrote:Updated and baggish has been contacted.

Cool. Here's some more for you to chew on:

Title: The Chaplin Mutuals, Volume 1
Country: US
Region: 0
Releasing Studio: Image Entertainment
Case Type: Keep case
Aspect Ratio: 1.33:1
Anamorphic?: No
PAL or NTSC?: NTSC
Soundtracks: 2.0 Dolby Digital stereo orchestral scores by Michael Mortilla
Subtitles (are they optional?): None; all films have English intertitles
Cuts: (and if you know it, precise run time) None
    The Immigrant (1917) (24:51)
    The Adventurer (1917) (23:24)
    The Cure (1917) (24:30)
    Easy Street (1917) (23:44)
Commentaries: None
Extras: None
Notes: 1995 restorations by Film Preservation Associates (David Shepard)
The films are sequenced in non-chronological order and authored as one continuous, chaptered programme titled the "Charlie Chaplin Festival" (137:12), as per their 1938 Van Beuren reissues.
Also available in Charlie Chaplin Short Comedy Classics: The Complete Restored Essanay & Mutual Collection (B00009Q4VX)
Easter Eggs: None
Amazon ASIN (UK, French, German, USA releases only): 6305075522
Source:* Own copy

Title: The Chaplin Mutuals, Volume 2
Country: US
Region: 0
Releasing Studio: Image Entertainment
Case Type: Keep case
Aspect Ratio: 1.33:1
Anamorphic?: No
PAL or NTSC?: NTSC
Soundtracks: 2.0 Dolby Digital stereo orchestral scores by Michael Mortilla
Subtitles (are they optional?): None; all films have English intertitles
Cuts: (and if you know it, precise run time) None
    The Count (1916) (23:10)
    The Vagabond (1916) (26:18)
    The Fireman (1916) (25:21)
    Behind the Screen (1916) (24:04)
Commentaries: None
Extras: None
Notes: 1995 restorations by Film Preservation Associates (David Shepard)
The films are sequenced in non-chronological order and authored as one continuous, chaptered programme titled the "Charlie Chaplin Carnival" (139:36), as per their 1938 Van Beuren reissues.
Also available in Charlie Chaplin Short Comedy Classics: The Complete Restored Essanay & Mutual Collection (B00009Q4VX)
Easter Eggs: None
Amazon ASIN (UK, French, German, USA releases only): 6305075530
Source:* Own copy

Title: The Chaplin Mutuals, Volume 3
Country: US
Region: 0
Releasing Studio: Image Entertainment
Case Type: Keep case
Aspect Ratio: 1.33:1
Anamorphic?: No
PAL or NTSC?: NTSC
Soundtracks: 2.0 Dolby Digital stereo orchestral scores by Michael Mortilla
Subtitles (are they optional?): None; all films have English intertitles
Cuts: (and if you know it, precise run time) None
    One A.M. (1916) (19:35)
    The Pawnshop (1916) (27:05)
    The Floorwalker (1916) (24:24)
    The Rink (1916) (23:43)
Commentaries: None
Extras: None
Notes: 1995 restorations by Film Preservation Associates (David Shepard)
The films are sequenced in non-chronological order and authored as one continuous, chaptered programme titled the "Charlie Chaplin Cavalcade" (135:33), as per their 1938 Van Beuren reissues.
Also available in Charlie Chaplin Short Comedy Classics: The Complete Restored Essanay & Mutual Collection (B00009Q4VX)
Easter Eggs: None
Amazon ASIN (UK, French, German, USA releases only): 6305075832
Source:* Own copy

I hope you'll forgive the presumptiousness of linking to the relevant section of my CC Guide, Part 2. Nowhere else on the internet (or anywhere else, for that matter) actually gathers together and explains all that info in one place - which is why I wrote it! :)

It'd be great if someone could supply specs for the French/German DVDs (they're identical too), the UK BFI discs and the US 90th Anniversary set. Then we'd have all the most significant and representative releases of Chaplin's Keystone, Essanay and Mutual shorts covered. That is, apart from that Spanish Mutuals BD set - but I'm working on that. :wink:
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby baggish » 05 Jul 2017 23:55

Brent_Reid wrote:The links I posted above detail exactly what restorations were licensed for inclusion on which releases; any questions you may have are answered there.

All discs currently listed have exactly the same restorations, ARs and stereo scores. Baggish is simply mistaken on the mono. Maybe he'd like to weigh in and confirm it? Also, I see that his German and UK timings are almost identical to my US ones. If they're accurate it means the Euro discs all use unconverted NTSC-PAL masters. I could see Arte doing that but am surprised if it's also true of the BFI.

How about those trailer reel timings? They merit inclusion, as per those in all the other Chaplin DVDs and BDs. Consistency! :wink:


I don't believe I am mistaken on the mono. When I submitted the specs for the BFI version, I listened carefully with the aid of recording level meters. I have just listened again and they are mono (or if they are stereo the stereo is so narrow it might as well be mono). The German timings weren't from me, only the UK ones were.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby baggish » 06 Jul 2017 00:04

Brent_Reid wrote:A friend of mine has the French DVDs; I made notes on them a few years ago but rounded the timings off to the nearest minute, hence me not adding them sooner. Have emailed him but perhaps Baggish can supply it? Have you messaged him about this thread?

I can't help you with the French DVDs I'm afraid.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 06 Jul 2017 00:32

baggish wrote:I don't believe I am mistaken on the mono. When I submitted the specs for the BFI version, I listened carefully with the aid of recording level meters. I have just listened again and they are mono (or if they are stereo the stereo is so narrow it might as well be mono). The German timings weren't from me, only the UK ones were.

You don't need fancy (potentially misleading) meters: just do this. :)

Hmm, I wonder who the German timings came from? No matter: there's no reason to doubt them. Did you supply the (untimed) German disc specs from an online source then?
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 06 Jul 2017 00:47

I found the German timings
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby baggish » 06 Jul 2017 10:59

Brent_Reid wrote:You don't need fancy (potentially misleading) meters: just do this. :)

I don't have the equipment to do that.

Maybe the BFI decided to remix/remaster/whatever is the correct term the soundtracks to mono, for reasons of their own?
See also http://film.thedigitalfix.com/content.p ... ntid=55947

Brent_Reid wrote:Hmm, I wonder who the German timings came from? No matter: there's no reason to doubt them. Did you supply the (untimed) German disc specs from an online source then?

I didn't have anything to do with the German specs.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 06 Jul 2017 14:16

The correct term would be 'bounced down' or 'folded down' from stereo to mono. That review's rubbish: he spends as much time talking about some crappy PD set that allegedly has pirated copies of the restorations, as he does about the BFI set. Those are digitally-recorded, only-two-decades-old tracks; there's no reason for them to start or finish up in mono. If the BFI had somehow buggered up the audio when mastering the DVDs, I'm sure someone would have mentioned it within the last 14 years.

S'funny: the German discs were credited to you until a day or two ago. I wonder how? James, have you been writing under an alias?!
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby baggish » 07 Jul 2017 17:57

Brent_Reid wrote:If the BFI had somehow buggered up the audio when mastering the DVDs, I'm sure someone would have mentioned it within the last 14 years.

Oh I don't know, it took 14 years for someone to submit the specs here. Anyway I just checked in VLC which says Channels = Mono and Apple DVD Player which says Channels = 1. It's not stereo.
p.s.
"The UK release has an essay and gallery, identical on the two volumes, but use NTSC to PAL transfers." - "use" should be "uses"
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 08 Jul 2017 01:20

Updated UK audio to 1.0 mono.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 10 Jul 2017 23:15

Well, this is a strange one indeed. I've even rechecked my Image discs and they're undisputedly stereo. I don't know much about the VLC or Apple players but do know my own BDP's OSD denotes all two-track audio as "stereo", regardless of whether it's actually stereo or mono - which is why I prefer the unmistakeable Dolby Pro Logic/DTS Neo test.
In the interest of science and to satisfy my own curiosity, I've placed Volume 1 of the UK, French and German Essanay DVDs on my Amazon watchlist. When the prices eventually drop low enough I'll snatch 'em up and report back here. I could do with my own copy of Bravo Charlot! anyway, as it only appears on French, German and Spanish DVDs.

In the meantime, those Mutual DVDs above are still waiting to be added...
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 11 Jul 2017 09:29

http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/f ... ?fid=42917

Working on the Mutual DVD sets. Gathering specs for the US 90th from a few websites and piecing together, found reliable specs for the German set but not goo info on the BFI releases. (DVDBeaver seems to have erased their DVD reviews of the sets).
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 11 Jul 2017 13:10

DVDBeaver doesn't do 301 redirects nor signposting links showing where old content's been moved to, so a lot of useful stuff gets buried. The relatively basic review of Vol 1 has been wiped (why?) but is on the Wayback Machine, whereas that for Vol 2 is still up here.
Signs are they could be more NTSC-PAL ports but at least 5.1 surround and 2.0 stereo audio are offered on their menu screens. Note the varying ARs. Both discs' restoration footnotes will need expanding from the Image DVDs; see my guide for the differences.
Last edited by Brent_Reid on 11 Sep 2018 09:58, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby baggish » 11 Jul 2017 13:53

Brent_Reid wrote:I don't know much about the VLC or Apple players but do know my own BDP's OSD denotes all two-track audio as "stereo", regardless of whether it's actually stereo or mono - which is why I prefer the unmistakeable Dolby Pro Logic/DTS Neo test.

Yes, VLC and Apple do that as well, which is why I didn't check them earlier and tested by ear/meters instead. I don't think I've seen them say mono before, and I was pretty surprised. So I guess it means the audio is actually single channel (if that's possible), as James has said (1.0 mono).

I think it's fair to say that some of the early BFI DVD releases generally weren't that great, the last ten years or so have seen them up their game hugely.

It looks like I would be able to get Mutual Vol 2 from the library but not Vol 1. And even then, not for a few weeks.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 11 Jul 2017 22:44

Added the Mutual DVD sets. Did not add the BFIs since I could not find reliable full disc specs.
I assume the French sets should be identical to the German, but seeing that the French volume 5 (I think) back case saying it had a "Bonus DVD", things may be different. Also did not add the Flicker Alley set since I could not find reliable info for the DVD copy.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 12 Jul 2017 00:26

Hi James, I take it you checked out the Beaver BFI Mutual links in my last post?

There is no French "bonus DVD": if you allow for translation, that makes it "DVD bonus", as in extra features. ;)

I may be able to get the Flicker Alley Mutuals DVD specs from a friend. I do have their Essanay BD/DVD set and was planning to post the specs for that and the new Italian Mutuals DVD set asap.

There was a box set of the German Essanay and Mutual DVDs after all: https://www.amazon.de/Charlie-Chaplin-gro%C3%9Fe-DVD-Box-DVDs/dp/3898488632. Note Amazon has the wrong title; it should be Charlie Chaplin: Kurzefilme (1915-1917).

Looks like there are even more extras ("bonus DVDs"!) on the French/German Essanay DVDs: http://www.heeza.fr/fr/dvd-courts-metrages/183-dvd-charlie-chaplin-the-essanay-comedies-the-mutual-comedies.html. Note that link shows a French box set with a very similar sleeve design to the German box above. Can you find an Amazon France listing for it? I've been unsuccessful so far.
Both are very different to the French box set already linked and illustrated in my guide, though that definitely contains the same discs.

Well done on adding the Mutual 90th Anniversary set, though it's a pity you couldn't find the runtimes. Some amendments:
    The notes should say "2006 restorations by Film Preservation Associates (David Shepard)"
    The sores are 2.0 stereo orchestral scores by Carl Davis. They were recorded for the BFI DVDs, reused here and once again on the most recent DVDs/BDs.
    The are two separate, slightly different versions of The Gentleman Tramp documentary on the third disc: the TV cut and the theatrical cut.

Your German Mutuals specs have me flummoxed for several reasons; I won't be completely satisfied about all these various DVDs until I've had the chance to check them myself.
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 12 Jul 2017 06:45

I found the runtimes for each "chapter" on the 90th set but not the actual full times of the shorts and extras. And I know adding all the individial chapter runtimes will not be equivalent to the titles' runtimes
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 12 Jul 2017 13:00

Brent_Reid wrote:Hi James, I take it you checked out the Beaver BFI Mutual links in my last post?

Which films are in which set? I know it says chronological but is it equally divided 6 and 6?
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby Brent_Reid » 12 Jul 2017 14:34

It's in my guide! why link to it if you won't read it yourself? Half the answers to the questions you ask me here are in it! :lol:
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Re: Charlie Chaplin Keystone, Essanay and Mutual DVDs

Postby James-Masaki_Ryan » 13 Jul 2017 06:32

Read it a long while ago, which is one reason I linked it previously and to these DVD pages. Another is that we expect users to give specifics and list here rather than just links to just disc info. Very busy myself with reviews and other work so give me a day or two to re-read the page. Either that or if anyone else could enter specs for the BFI DVDs before that!
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